I may not always be open minded, but I try, so maybe with your enlightenment about it, you can help explain why my key complaints about 2nd edition are either invalid or unimportant? Please? :)
(I hate hating a game system, but I've never gotten over my feelings about 2nd, maybe it's time for that)
The first complaint is that while it changed rules, and didn't necessarily make much worse, it didn't fix any of the primary problems from 1st ed, at least not very well.
A good example is the non-weapon proficiency system, while it was compiled and re-organized, it was still clumsy and awkward in functionality. I'm told this was 'fixed' when Skills and Powers came out, but that was so far into the years of second edition and so recent relatively speaking, that I'd hardly even heard of it before 3rd hit the shelves, and it sold so poorly that I still haven't managed to get a copy in my hands long enough to see if I like how they did things.
Another example is the thief/rogue/whatever abilities. By giving them points, it got around one of the big problems of 1st edition, allowing you to specialize, and not forcing you into abilities you don't want or use (I've never once played a pickpocket for instance, I never used the ability even when I could). But, crunching the numbers on the math, even if I completely ignored one ability, my other abilities were rarely as good as they were in 1st.
And my other key complaint about second, is that they sold so much pointless crap that nobody could buy it all, but I'd constantly run into people who'd bought things they wanted to use, even though I ran a 1st edition game. This was especially annoying when they wanted to be a remake of Tanis or Drizzt, since my elves were based on what info I had from early Greyhawk, and if I let them play those characters with the players' expectations about the culture based on their own character backgrounds... it would change my elves into someone else's elves, and the only someone else I wanted influencing them was Gygax himself.
I still bitch about what Drizzt's existence did to rangers. They didn't dual wield in 1st edition, and I can't recall them ever dual wielding before that damned drow came along. Will I never be able to play a competent tracker again who's not obsessed with either dual wielding or archery? Maybe if I play a Scout, but then I have to deal with their bizarre pseudo sneak attack ability instead.
And honestly, that all boils down to this: when I had basic background information on which to build, I could grow it into a campaign, and have some real freedom. This also gave me freedom in other people's campaigns, since all I'd have to do is ask a few key questions about a handful of areas they hadn't yet developed, and I could shove any character idea I had into their world and make it fit comfortably. With 2nd ed, there was so much detailed info about everywhere and everything, that I had no freedom, I had to base what I did on what they wrote.
And all that is clearly illustrated by my complaint about the class books, where you could get detailed backgrounds for any way you might want to play a class, and get next to no advantage from playing your character that way. At least these days, if I want to get stuck in someone else's template, I get some advantages for using their prestige class design.
no subject
(I hate hating a game system, but I've never gotten over my feelings about 2nd, maybe it's time for that)
The first complaint is that while it changed rules, and didn't necessarily make much worse, it didn't fix any of the primary problems from 1st ed, at least not very well.
A good example is the non-weapon proficiency system, while it was compiled and re-organized, it was still clumsy and awkward in functionality. I'm told this was 'fixed' when Skills and Powers came out, but that was so far into the years of second edition and so recent relatively speaking, that I'd hardly even heard of it before 3rd hit the shelves, and it sold so poorly that I still haven't managed to get a copy in my hands long enough to see if I like how they did things.
Another example is the thief/rogue/whatever abilities. By giving them points, it got around one of the big problems of 1st edition, allowing you to specialize, and not forcing you into abilities you don't want or use (I've never once played a pickpocket for instance, I never used the ability even when I could). But, crunching the numbers on the math, even if I completely ignored one ability, my other abilities were rarely as good as they were in 1st.
And my other key complaint about second, is that they sold so much pointless crap that nobody could buy it all, but I'd constantly run into people who'd bought things they wanted to use, even though I ran a 1st edition game. This was especially annoying when they wanted to be a remake of Tanis or Drizzt, since my elves were based on what info I had from early Greyhawk, and if I let them play those characters with the players' expectations about the culture based on their own character backgrounds... it would change my elves into someone else's elves, and the only someone else I wanted influencing them was Gygax himself.
I still bitch about what Drizzt's existence did to rangers. They didn't dual wield in 1st edition, and I can't recall them ever dual wielding before that damned drow came along. Will I never be able to play a competent tracker again who's not obsessed with either dual wielding or archery? Maybe if I play a Scout, but then I have to deal with their bizarre pseudo sneak attack ability instead.
And honestly, that all boils down to this: when I had basic background information on which to build, I could grow it into a campaign, and have some real freedom. This also gave me freedom in other people's campaigns, since all I'd have to do is ask a few key questions about a handful of areas they hadn't yet developed, and I could shove any character idea I had into their world and make it fit comfortably. With 2nd ed, there was so much detailed info about everywhere and everything, that I had no freedom, I had to base what I did on what they wrote.
And all that is clearly illustrated by my complaint about the class books, where you could get detailed backgrounds for any way you might want to play a class, and get next to no advantage from playing your character that way. At least these days, if I want to get stuck in someone else's template, I get some advantages for using their prestige class design.